From Copywriter to Sales Coach: Megan Smyth’s Bold Business Evolution

Oct 15

Ever wonder how to make the transition from service provider to coach? This is Megan Smyth’s journey from conversion copywriter to thriving sales coach whose mission is to make selling feel good.

Hey friends, I am thrilled, wait, my goodness, what happened? I don't know why that happened. Okay, sorry. Okay, let me start over. Hey friends, I am thrilled to welcome back Meg Smythe. Joining us on the podcast today, she has been a.

Megan (00:13.685)

You

RuthAnn Rafiq (00:23.454)

One of the first people I interviewed on my podcast back when I started in 2023 with my podcast, and I'm so excited to bring her back today. Meg, welcome.

Megan (00:33.826)

Thank you. I'm so glad to be back.

RuthAnn Rafiq (00:36.61)

Yes, it's wonderful to be chatting with you. And this time, you know, we've talked in the past about, you know, different seasons of life we've been in. You've definitely talked about copywriting and the power of conversion copywriting. That was back, I think, in our 2023 episode. But today we are talking about how your journey, your business journey and how it's evolved into now you are a coach and in the education space. And so I'm so excited to chat with you on that.

transition. And for those of you who may be new to rebrand with Ruthanne, I love talking with my guests about how their business has evolved over time, how they're making big pivots and going through rebrands and maintaining integrity and alignment in the journey, which is what you've done so beautifully. And so I would love for you to share this pivot to the education space and what brought on that shift.

Megan (01:30.176)

Yeah, of course. And I just want to say really quickly, I love the conversations you have on your podcast, because I feel like this is the stuff no one really talks about, Like there's a lot of podcasts, people are sharing their expertise, but it's so nice to kind of pull back the curtain and share like, what does that look like in real time? And, you know, the kind of messy middle of building a business and the different seasons.

evolutions that you go through as the business owner and obviously those are reflected in your brand as well. So for me, I started my business as a co-op writer as Ruthanne shared and I built that business to six figures in the co-op writing side and then I was sort of getting these questions from people about how I did this, right? Like, oh, you're booked out as a co-op writer in 2023, 2024 when AI was starting to come on the scene or newer co-op writers reaching out to me.

RuthAnn Rafiq (01:57.074)

Yes.

Megan (02:16.726)

other service providers asking questions, especially because I did this without social media marketing. So I was not active on Instagram or TikTok at all. And that was a big question I was getting from people is like, how are you selling your high ticket services without social media? Like, what are you doing? We see you, know, frolicking in the Scottish Highlands and you're working 20 hours a week or less and traveling the world. Like, what are you doing? So that's where it really started coming from. I just started sharing more and more about that. And I always loved the strategy side. So I've been doing like strategic.

RuthAnn Rafiq (02:38.726)

Megan (02:45.614)

consulting my business, helping clients plan launches and things like that. And so was sort of a natural transition from copywriting to consulting on the strategy side. And then that kind of grew organically into coaching because what I found was with my strategy clients, when we would talk about building their funnel and setting up the system and planning the launches, what was really holding people back more so than the strategy, because I could give them, know, give them the templates, review their copy, give them the whole thing, right? And still,

the roadblocks that people were hitting more often than not were skill set or strategy. It was all mindset. And you and I have talked about this before, but I just really believe there's a lot of obstacles in building your own business, but nothing will F you up more than your own beliefs and your own mindset and perspective on things. And so it was sort of a natural transition for me to kind of break into into the coaching space. And that's where I'm at now.

RuthAnn Rafiq (03:40.968)

Well, I love that you bring that up about mindset. And I think that's just true if you are in the online space, you can find any piece of information you need that is, know, quote unquote, the missing piece to helping your business grow. It's all out there. All the information is out there. Everything is accessible to you. But if you don't have that mindset of like, I can figure this out. People are excited to work with me. I have something valuable to offer.

you're not going to be excited to show up or confident. so there's so many. Yes, I just 100 % agree. Mindset is the thing that will help you really grow your business and especially in sales, like help you sell more and stuff. So I have one. Yeah, I just could not agree with you more.

Megan (04:27.414)

Yeah, I think if there's one area, you know, where all of us have some baggage and mindset hangouts, it's around sales and money, right? Asking for money and so many reasons that I used to give these presentations, you know, as my copyright and business group, people would ask me to come into their, you their membership community, their group program and teach how to write sales copy. And right off the bat, people were asking me like, can you teach our group how to write sleaze free?

sales copy or non-salesy sales copy. I'm like, what does that even mean? of all, non-salesy sales copy. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna go in and I gave this presentation. And the first time I gave it, it was kind of an experiment. was like, I've never done this before. I'm just gonna share, you know, what I know and starting with the basics, right? The introduction of like, what is sales? What is copy? And as I would talk about like what selling is and what it's not, that was always like the most impactful.

part of the presentation. People were like, yeah, yeah, we love the buyer's journey. This is super helpful for writing copy. But you've also now changed the way that I think about sales. And I've never been so excited to get out there and sell. And so that for me was kind of like a light bulb moment.

And I started asking audiences when I'd give these presentations, I thought I'm saying sales. What's the first word that comes to mind or like emotion that comes up for you? Just drop something in the chat, right? And I would see, and these were all female groups, by the way, as it happens. And all of these women would be dropping in the chat, dread, ick, cringe, please, uncomfortable, gross, like I just don't want to do it, all of this stuff. And it really got me thinking, how is that impacting our businesses if the activity that our income

relies on because there's no way around it, right? If you're a business owner, your income relies on your ability to sell in whatever form or shape that takes for you. How do you think it's impacting your business if the activity your income relies on inspires dread? Is that going to make you more or less likely to do it? Is it going to make you more effective or less effective, right? So I was like, this is real issue here that I wanted to dive deeper in and help people with.

RuthAnn Rafiq (06:26.81)

And I love that you said that. I do think, you know, women really struggle. I was one of those women who really struggled with sales in the beginning. You and I both serve women centered businesses, which I love that about us. And, you know, having helping women with a holistic approach to sales and marketing, which is so good. But like, why do you think we do struggle so much with selling when our counterparts are just like, I don't think it's even like on their radar. They don't even think about it.

Megan (06:55.328)

It's not. The short answer to my initial reaction is like the patriarchy, which is an oversimplification. But it is true. Like it's real. Women and girls are socialized from a very young age to, you know, be quiet, play small, don't speak up, be agreeable, don't ask for too much, you know, be grateful for what you have. We're uncomfortable asking for money in a lot of situations. There are very real reasons why.

we feel this way and I will say all those examples I shared of the things I hear from women about, it's uncomfortable, I don't want to brag, right? I was raised to be humble. I don't want to kind of put myself out there in that way. I don't want to sound too full of myself or be overly confident, overly salesy. I don't want to be aggressive or assertive, right? Like no little boy growing up was ever told that they were.

too aggressive or assertive, right? They were just a confident, natural leader. And so it's a very different environment. And I will say, I have worked with male clients and men as well. I have never heard any of them say that and anything along those lines. If anything, they lean in the opposite direction of overconfidence. And I've had to sometimes ring clients in and be like, we're making promises here. They're not even necessarily true. Like, let's take a step back for a second. And they've actually done, like, this isn't just,

in my own experience, they have done studies on this that men do naturally tend, especially male entrepreneurs, to be overly confident. And that's what makes them great entrepreneurs in a lot of cases, because you do need to have a little bit of delusional self-confidence to go into business for yourself and shoot your shot and take all these risks and pitch clients and face rejection and get back up and all of that. It is a helpful skill set in entrepreneurs. And unfortunately,

women they found the opposite, right? We tend to undersell ourselves, our accomplishments, we've built, and that isn't helpful in a sales context.

RuthAnn Rafiq (08:52.67)

which is so true. And I really connected with what you said about like growing up, you know, wanting to be humble and wanting to not brag on yourself. Like, I think something for me was like not draw attention to yourself. Like, like I can do all this and I've done all this. Like you don't really want to be that way as growing up, you know, you want to be humble and kind and you know, all those things. But I think there's, there's a very healthy measure of both in a good way.

Megan (09:05.443)

Yeah.

RuthAnn Rafiq (09:21.008)

and it's how you come across in tone. There's just so many factors that go into it, but I think there's definitely a healthy degree of self-confidence you can have. And also saying, this is how I've helped my clients. And this is something you and I talked about recently, because we were working on my own sales page. And I remember I was like, I just don't know if I should say this. And you were like, but this is the truth. And I was like, I mean, that's true. It's just funny.

Megan (09:35.711)

Yep.

Megan (09:48.926)

I just state in the facts here. That's what it is funny. And I just want to say like two things, you know, well, actually, I've got I've got so many thoughts on this, but I'll try to wrangle my little ADHD right here. Just so clear. First of like you're so not alone in that, right? It's so, so common, especially the bragging and like overconfidence piece. And I'm also

RuthAnn Rafiq (09:51.332)

It's, yeah.

Megan (10:09.694)

I'm not speaking from some pedestal here, everything I'm saying, I've had those thoughts too. It's something I still deal with and I have friends call me out on it. And I try really hard to, because this is I teach now and I help my clients with. I'm I'm really trying here to walk the walk and not downplay my own accomplishments. And I still catch myself sometimes being like, I don't want to say that. That's too much. Even though, to your point, it's true.

Like a friend was saying to me recently, like, you built a six-figure business by age 25. And I'm like, that sounds so like, I don't know. There's something about it, right? It sounds right. She's like, but it's true. It is just like the fact, right? And there's nothing inauthentic or salesy or aggressive about saying that because it is true. Of course, if it wasn't, that would be very unethical to be sharing that in your marketing, but it is the truth, right? And I think there's such power in just

RuthAnn Rafiq (10:57.201)

Yes.

Megan (11:02.996)

owning that and owning your own accomplishments, especially client results.

RuthAnn Rafiq (11:06.746)

Yes, that's so true. And it's such a way to build authority in the space. It's like, you know, I have this track record of this is what my clients have done or, something like that. And it's, you know, to your point of being like 25 and built to six, you know, that that's saying something not everyone can do that or has done that. So I think it just puts you on a different level to where it just is that authority piece and it helps people build trust like, she knows what she's talking about or, you know, what have you. So I think it's it's definitely

I appreciate it from a listener point of view. Like if I hear someone, I'm like, wow, like, you know, it's kind of a nice thing to know. So I think it's a good authority building piece and I think it's totally fine to say it.

Megan (11:48.173)

Yeah, and I think it's something, yeah, a lot of us kind of let fall by the wayside, you know, the client results thing. Like you have so many incredible client results or that, that like, you your clients did amazing things after their websites launched and they're, you know, booked out and having these incredible launches and all the things with their new brand. And it's like, we have these results in our businesses, but we aren't necessarily sharing them. Almost every woman I've ever worked with, you know, when I asked them.

for social proof and testimonials, like, let's talk about what you do for your clients, and they have all these incredible stories, and the social proof, they're just not using it. So that's a really easy, low-hanging fruit to start with, is that if you feel uncomfortable selling, start with your clients and let them do the selling and talking for you. Start there.

RuthAnn Rafiq (12:30.95)

That's a fantastic tip. Yes. So we will probably circle back to sales, but I would like to go into kind of like the practical side of when you did make the transition. And I'm trying to think of what your first Instagram handle was, but you switched over to sales with Meg is your Instagram handle now. So like, how was it making the like rolling out those changes? And I remember seeing that and I was like, wow, she does sales now. Like, and you and I are close. Like, you know, you're the copywriter on my team. Like, you know, and I just.

Megan (12:53.935)

Hahaha

RuthAnn Rafiq (13:00.498)

I'm on your email list too. So I knew things were happening, but it was also kind of like, wow, she's like going for it. And I loved it. And so how was it on your end, rolling out those changes and kind of owning it and stepping into the space, you know, as an expert.

Megan (13:16.014)

Yeah, the Instagram handle thing is so funny because I just sort of changed it on a whim one day. I was like, screw it. Like this is what I'm doing. I'm going to own it, like you said. And I was not expecting people to even notice, quite frankly. But I got so many, because like I said, I'm not really active on social. I've got an account, but I'm not like marketing myself there or anything. And I got so many messages from people like, what does this mean? I saw you change your handle, like all the things. And I was like, I didn't realize this was like, know, big news. So there wasn't a whole lot of like.

RuthAnn Rafiq (13:42.558)

The Instagram drama.

Megan (13:44.782)

There wasn't some big, like, yeah, there wasn't like a big, like, you know, project behind it. I was just like, it feels time. It felt like a more authentic, you know, title for what I'm doing these days. So to answer your question, I am sort of still in, like, I'm doing both, right? And so I am sort of in that middle on that transition phase because I do work on the coaching and consulting side. I work with other service providers. So I think it's important, at least for now, to still sort of have, you know, one foot in that world so that I am on top of

what's actually working in terms of selling your services today in 2025. And so I do still take on some copywriting work. So it's just sort of been a natural transition of like doing less of that over time. You know, obviously a couple of years ago, basically 100 % of my income was copywriting work. And then I got to a point where, you know, maybe like 70 % was, and then it was more so like consulting and like a little bit of coaching on the side. And so those percentages have sort of naturally reversed where now the majority.

my revenue comes from coaching, consulting work, and then like I have a course as well and cooperating is a smaller piece of the pie. So I'm still sort of in that transition but it has been really interesting and I will admit it was scary to own like that title and this new area of business because of course all the things come up, who am I to call myself a coach and all these things and again like the self-doubt is real even though I was looking at like client results and all these things it's like okay I've helped these clients like

double their business, their first clients, their first 10k month, whatever it was, have the results. At what point does it become ridiculous to avoid announcing publicly this transition? And I also will be totally honest in that I had my own sort of hesitations around the coaching space and the coaching industry because I've had some negative experiences. I've heard from a lot of friends in business who have had less than

great experiences working with coaches, especially sales coaches. There are business coaches out there who their first business was business coaching. Like they never built a business of their own. Like it's a very unregulated industry and there's lots of amazing coaches out there too. But I was just very aware of that and it was never a direction that I planned on doing. Like if you told me four or five years ago that I was gonna be calling myself a coach, I would have, yeah. I'm gonna laugh to your face, but here we are.

RuthAnn Rafiq (15:44.465)

Eh-heh.

RuthAnn Rafiq (16:03.666)

Well, like you said, it was such a natural progression. And when you did copywriting like full time, your specialty was sales copywriting. Like you did sales pages so well. And I just remember I would tell my clients like she specializes in sales copy. And that was always something they wanted because let the copy sell for me. Like I don't want to be like selling like, yeah, I don't want to sell.

Megan (16:13.142)

Yes, that's true.

Megan (16:24.987)

That's why everyone likes it. Yeah, they're like, I don't want to sell. want my copy. So funny.

RuthAnn Rafiq (16:29.55)

Exactly. They're like, let my copy, just do it for me. And so I so I do think it was totally a natural and I love that you just followed it. Like people are asking, people are wanting, people need help with this. A lot of people need help with this. And so I think I love that you just followed it. You trusted it. And, you know, yes, there's always going to be self doubt whenever we're going into a new thing that we've never done, whether that's starting a podcast, whether that's starting a business, you know.

pivoting directions. Like I think it's totally normal to have those self doubt feelings, but you really trusted yourself and I'm so proud of you and just seeing your success has been extremely exciting.

Megan (17:11.266)

Well, thank you. appreciate that. you know, it is so interesting, like you mentioned, like trusted yourself, trusted that feeling, which of course with time, right? Like I'm not perfect. Like I said, I had all the doubts and all the things. So if you're in that space, just know, like it is so worth it to kind of trust that instinct or that feeling of like, this is where I need to go next. Even if it's really scary and unknown, because it was really a different business model in a lot of ways. I was like, I know how to sell operating services. I don't know how to sell.

I mean, I'd sold courses and coaches for my clients, but I'd never done it for myself. And that brings up like a whole new sort of layer of things. It's like, have to learn new skills. I'm going to be selling them, you doing webinars and running coaching calls and all these different things. And it's uncomfortable, but it's so worth it because it, like you said, it felt right. It felt like the next right step. And there is nothing like, I loved cooperating work. I really enjoyed what I did.

I loved playing a small part in helping other women grow their businesses, but now being able to play like a slightly larger role more directly, I'll say, in seeing the impact of, know, coffee can do a lot of things for your business, but coaching really can be so transformative in such a short period of time. And just nothing lights me up more than seeing my clients or just women in general helping them make more money in their business. Like that is really what it's all about, being able to give people that financial security, independence, freedom, like.

RuthAnn Rafiq (18:09.438)

Yeah.

Megan (18:32.462)

now more than ever, like we need women to have their own income and their security. Like being able to give that to people and see that transformation and just watch my clients grow in their own mindset and skillset and watching them like sell with confidence and raise their prices and stay booked out and all these things. Like it's so rewarding. So it was scary and uncomfortable, but it's so worth it. So I want to say to anyone who's kind of in that turn, just in phase themselves right now.

RuthAnn Rafiq (18:35.974)

Yes.

RuthAnn Rafiq (18:59.176)

And I wanna say to people who are thinking about it, and I just wanna share a really quick experience from my end of my own business. This is something we talked about before we hit record, but like I was going hardcore into the agency model and I was transforming my business. I was hiring designers. I was like all in and I really thought it was the right thing and not saying it was the wrong thing.

But I remember, I think it was in May or maybe it was June, I was just feeling like this is not the right time for me to do this. I have three little kids, I'm homeschooling my five-year-old. was like, just, it was just not working. It was not working in my personal life. And my business was demanding a lot more time for me that I did not have to give. I work about 10 hours a week with childcare and I just did not have the time.

to run an agency, have an agency model business. And so it was one of those things where I was really pursuing it with all of me and it was just like not working. And so I went back to, I reverted to my old ways of being a solopreneur. I am the main designer again and I am doing all the client communication and this is what I've been doing for many years. And so this is normal to me, but it was one of those things where I was...

I gave it a go and it just wasn't the right season and I might give it a go again. But if you are thinking, I really want to make this step and I want to go into a new maybe business model or a different, not industry, but a different sphere, whether it's education or coaching or something like that, give it a go and you might have great success and it might be exactly what you need in that season. Or you might find like, actually this is like not

working for me, this is not really fitting my needs in my personal life and you know, that kind of thing. And then like pull back and you know, do what you were doing before. So I just wanna encourage people like, like Meg said, know, trust your intuition, go for it. And then you can always reevaluate and then change directions. Nothing is permanent, especially with the online space. Everything is so like changing all the time. So I just wanted to encourage people with that too.

Megan (21:19.776)

Yeah, it's all in flux, right? And I would argue that I think that takes even more courage, Ruthanne, honestly, than jumping into something unknown. Because for a lot of us entrepreneurs, that is the fun part. It's like the shiny new idea. And I'm going to launch an educational product or course, or we're going to start coaching. And it feels shiny and exciting. So that momentum kind of gets you through. But knowing when to take a step back and pivot and say, actually, this wasn't right, and to kind of change direction that way, I think is even

RuthAnn Rafiq (21:22.044)

Yes.

Megan (21:47.022)

more difficult and more courageous. And I think a lot of people in your position would just push through and kind of force it and be like, well, the agency, like, this is what I have to do. This is the way to grow. Like, this is the way it has to be. And you really, you know, took the time to honor and pause and just feel like, hey, this is actually what I want. And especially, like you said, for the personal life and your family and all of that, like taking that into consideration. think just speaks so highly like of you and your values and you.

are literally living this value-driven business. That's what it means when people say, building your life first and your business second or leading with values. That's such a great example of

RuthAnn Rafiq (22:23.854)

I'm doing what I can over here. It's not always easy, but doing what I can and I feel so much more at peace right now. I cannot tell you how much more peaceful it feels, easy it feels. Like I said, I've been doing this for a while, so it just feels like the right thing. And so I think that's kind of what I'm chasing now is that peaceful feeling when you're excited about, you know, starting your workday and that kind of thing. So I'm exactly where I should be, which is a great thing.

So let's go back to what we were talking about, how the online industry changes so quickly, or maybe it doesn't seem like that way from the outside, but when you're in it, it feels like it changes so fast. When I started my business back in 2016, things are, oh my words, like light years away from where we started, when I started. And since 2020, so much has changed in the online space.

So what have you noticed when it comes to selling? What is like working in 2025?

Megan (23:24.396)

Yeah, that's such a great question. And I'm happy to get into specifics because there's a lot of things that used to work that are no longer working and vice versa. But when I teach sales, I'm really focused on what I call the timeless strategies. So my background's in the medical field, and everything that I teach is rooted in neuroscience and human psychology. Because when you understand how people think, you understand how they buy, and when you really build that skill set, you can sell.

in any market, know, on any platform, using any strategy that you choose. So you'll never hear me talking about like the latest TikTok trends or how to keep up with the algorithm. Like, to me, that's like the surface layer. And if you understand the deeper foundations, then you know, you're set and you have that skill set that will serve you no matter how the market changes, you can adapt to it because that's what's underlying, you know, what's working and what's not. So to answer your question, there's so many shifts, you know, just in the last couple of years. I will say the biggest one I see impacting people is

A lot of people talk about the market is busier, it's more crowded, it's more saturated, it's more competition. And I would argue it's less about saturation and more about market sophistication.

buyer's awareness in the online business space has changed, right? Where five, 10 years ago when everything was shiny and new, people were like, you can make money online? What is this? It's all new and exciting. And there was so many courses and coaches and things out there making those promises of like make money in your sleep and you can have the laptop lifestyle, drink the margaritas on the beach all day and all this.

people bought into that because we didn't know any better, right? Like it was new and exciting. yes, there was less competition. And so if you were the only person or one of a few options, it was a lot easier to sell to people. And you didn't have to do as much legwork, I think, on the marketing side, or even the messaging side, which we're seeing now with AI, right? Like now anyone can have...

Megan (25:17.486)

decent, not necessarily good, but decent messaging, like a four out of 10. You can have some four out 10 coffee at like the click of your fingers. Okay, well now everyone has equal access. What it's done is level the playing field, right? If anyone can have average messaging, well now you need to be just one step better, right? Like one level higher. You need to be better than average, better than good enough. And the unfortunate reality is, you know, a couple years ago in this space, especially during the pandemic, a lot of

new businesses came on the scene and the space was really like booming, right? The online business space is kind of like a golden era for online business because there were so many people coming in. And so it was really great time to be a B2B service provider because there were so many new businesses that you could serve. People are excited. All this possibility. We had all this time to invest in our businesses and these new ventures and education and all these great things. And now, you know, about five years out, we're sort of seeing

RuthAnn Rafiq (26:05.788)

Yes.

Megan (26:13.73)

the pendulum start to swing the other way and a lot of people are leaving the space or just pivoting or they're having a hard time selling and there's so many reasons. So when I say like sophistication, like I said, on the one hand buyers are more educated and more aware. On the other hand, they're more skeptical than they used to be. We're all feeling a little bit, I think, cynical and jaded these days. And you can really see that I've heard from so many people in every industry that

One of the major objections they're getting this year especially is like what I call the been burned before objection. So there's a lack of trust with their audience. like, how do I know? Because I've invested with another coach or another designer or whatever it is and I had that negative experience. Like I mentioned with coaching earlier, people aren't really getting that five years ago. They were like, you can help me make consistent 10K months, sign me up, done. Like when do we start? And now there is a real lack

trust which is unfortunate because that came from people who weren't delivering on their promises. But I do think in all of this there's also you know I know a lot of people are struggling and that's very real but this is also a time of great opportunity because the people who you know were selling those big promises and under

I really don't believe those people have a future in this industry. I think the people who are going to really stand out in the sort of next era of online business are the ones who keep their promises, build real trust and real relationships with their audience, lead with their values. like that is what's really going to cut through the noise are the people who are authentic and real and really serving their clients to the best of.

ability. Like that's where the future is going. So I think that is an exciting trend and we can talk about, you know, what that means for like a sales perspective and how to counter objections and all that too if you want.

RuthAnn Rafiq (28:02.928)

Well, I think that just goes to show like relationships are key in business.

Megan (28:10.946)

Yes, that's an example of timeless business advice. It's like, yes, you can make trending reals or you can invest in the timeless strategies of how you build and nurture meaningful relationships. One of those is going to carry you much further than the other.

RuthAnn Rafiq (28:15.482)

Exactly.

RuthAnn Rafiq (28:26.238)

100 % and I think, you know, relationship building is easy for most women and I think it's, I think bringing in the sales piece in those relationships, like making sure you are selling your services is important. In the beginning, I just would make all these friends online and I would never sell to them and my coach was like, you need to be selling to these women. I'm like, I don't even know how to do that. Like we're friends, I can't sell to them. And she was like, you're helping them with your design work. And it's just funny because you know, how...

my perspective has shifted in like sales and relationships and business. And I think it's all intertwined. And basically you're helping someone else with what you can do. And that's getting down to it. know, business is providing a solution to someone's problem. And I think we can get so focused about, okay, what's trending? Like, what do need to be doing? And I think I've definitely been wrapped up in that like in multiple seasons of my business.

What's the perfect thing to say? Like, what do I need to say to like close this sale or whatever? It's not about that. Like, it's just about those timeless qualities. Sometimes you have to ride the waves of the ebbs and flows of business, which is totally normal. And you just have to stick with it and just offer a terrific service, be, you know, fulfilling your promises and provide a good experience for your clients and deliver and you will be fine.

Megan (29:50.67)

Yeah, yeah, there's sort of two sides to this, you know, two sides to this coin. The one is that, like I said, five years ago, it was a lot easier to sell for a lot of people. And it was enough back then, quite honestly, to be good at what you did and give people a good service and make friends. I'd like people were to share in business and referrals and all the things. And you didn't necessarily need to be as great on the sales side because the business space was so happening that a lot of people were just getting word of mouth.

and things were just kind of working out naturally. know, they'd have an Instagram profile and people would be like, how can I work with you? And that was that. And in 2025, the unfortunate reality is like, it's no longer enough to be good at what you do. You also should get at selling what you do. But the upside or flip side is that when I say that a lot of people get uncomfortable, they're like, again, I don't want to sell. I don't want to be salesy on the things. The upside is, you know, like I started hinting at, right? Like selling does not mean...

spamming everyone with your offers or being like overly aggressive or assertive and sending a million cold DMs or anything like that because what's worked in the sales space is also changing and making these big hypey promises and the kind of dude bro marketing of the past, like it doesn't work anymore. So if you are naturally an empathetic person, if you like building relationships, if you like making real connections, there's so much opportunity.

And I think people, sometimes women especially, think they need to change who they are to be like a good salesperson, right? They pretend to be someone that they're not. And I'm going to tell you, if that's you, chances are it's your natural skill set is actually going to serve you much better. You don't need to change who are. You need to lean more into that. Because the greatest skill in sales is empathy. That's something I have said over and over again. I'll continue to say, selling is 90 % listening.

and building relationships, like you said, and all of these things that to a lot of women do come more naturally. So I really believe that the future of sales is female and the future of online business, I think, will be too.

RuthAnn Rafiq (31:52.292)

That's so encouraging for most, I think all of my listeners are women, so that works out for us. So when you think about the future and AI and all that kind of thing, there, how do you think you can future proof your business and income and thrive in uncertainty? And I have a follow up question with that too.

Megan (32:13.134)

This is such a question. I'm actually, just recorded the other day podcast episode for my own podcast plays just talking about this and the future of selling your services in AI and future racing your business. So there's so many points. A couple of quick ones is I think, you know, human beings are really wired for connection. Like from an evolutionary standpoint, like we're made to exist in community. We don't do too well on our own. Right. And we saw this during COVID, right? Like that isolation is not.

good for us. It had a huge toll on people's mental health. And I'm sure a lot of us can remember the first time we saw our family and friends after lockdown, right? And like, what that was like and how we maybe didn't realize the small daily interactions of like, you know, the cashier at the grocery store and the barista at Starbucks, like how that impacted us. So as we move more towards automation and AI and all of this, the more we're sort of deprived of that human connection, the more we crave it.

So I think that that's an area of opportunity is if you can give people that, if you can give them real connection, know, just on calls with you in your content, you know, letting them get to know you and you get to know them, vice versa. Like, are you having that two way conversation? Are you being real in your content, sharing like real life stories so they feel like they know you as a person and not just, you know, the brand, the business owner, the face on the screen.

Are you doing that with your clients? Are you building those real relationships? The more you lean into that human connection element, that is really what people are going to be craving in the future. So it's interesting that as we move towards automation and AI, it's sort of like people are craving the opposite. And I think that's only going to become more important with the more AI that comes out.

RuthAnn Rafiq (33:51.58)

I think that's such a good point and that is so true. Like seeing that correlation with what happened during COVID and you know now I think that is a very good point. I love that.

Megan (34:02.614)

Yeah, you'll notice there's been a lot of like rise in membership communities and after lockdown was over there was all these in-person events because people missed it, right? Like we were craving that and people are looking for that. So if you can be the one to give it to them, whether that's one-on-one with you or in some sort of community element, like that's so, so powerful. That's never going to go away, right? That's another timeless strategy is because like 50 years, hundred years from now people aren't going to like have stopped caring about.

RuthAnn Rafiq (34:07.496)

Yeah

RuthAnn Rafiq (34:11.132)

Yes.

Megan (34:28.664)

human connection. That's the thing about the human brain does not evolve that quickly, right? We still have all these caveman instincts. We're still going to have them 50 years from now. We're still going to create connection with other human beings.

RuthAnn Rafiq (34:40.658)

which is a good thing. Yeah, I don't mind that at all. So when it comes to your profession, as a sales coach now, do you feel like personally, like maybe your job will be irrelevant? Same with people have asked me this for me too. Like as a designer, because AI is kind of learning quickly, do you think you'll be out of a job soon? I'm just curious like your personal thoughts on that.

Megan (34:42.144)

Yes, it is good.

Megan (35:04.91)

Yeah, I'm laughing right here. I mean, no, like straight up no. And maybe that sounds cocky and I'm sure some AI expert listening to this is going to be like, well, you don't know like what it's, I'm just saying, honestly, where we're at right now, it is nowhere even close to what it would need to be, I think, to really replace human beings. And, you know, the human connection thing that I mentioned aside, I do think like

RuthAnn Rafiq (35:15.676)

Hahaha

Megan (35:30.766)

smart business owners and people that I look up to and admire. Yes, they're using AI in their business, but they're not replacing every human element with it. And I see people, know, and in coaching, especially in things, who's trying to like replacing yourself with a robot. I'm like, who here is paying to be coached by a robot? Like, I just don't see, you know, and it's at this point where it can give you advice. Yes, you can go to Chat2BT and ask for strategy advice. What should I do in my business?

RuthAnn Rafiq (35:38.046)

Yeah.

Megan (36:00.034)

I think there's two sort of dark sides to that. mean, one, it can't give you advice based on lived experience, right? Because it doesn't have any lived experience. It's only giving, it's sort of regurgitating information that's already out there, right? It's the same thing if you use it to write your copy. And again, this isn't meant to be like for or against AI. I'm not saying don't use it. I think it's a useful tool. It's been helpful for a lot of people in a lot of different contexts, know, made it.

RuthAnn Rafiq (36:10.064)

Yes, that is correct.

Megan (36:27.374)

great copy, like I said, more accessible and all these things. But just know, you know, if you're using it to write your copy, for example, the way the model is built is it's taking all of the copy that already exists on the internet and yes, you can trade it on your voice and all these things, but you're still ultimately going to end up with an average of the internet. And so that's what it's producing, right? Same thing goes for design. It's just not quite at the skill level. And to me, there's nothing more human than coming up with an original idea.

RuthAnn Rafiq (36:28.606)

Totally. Yes.

RuthAnn Rafiq (36:46.459)

Yes.

Megan (36:56.918)

an original thought, like those 2 a.m. light bulb moments and the idea just strikes you, that kind of divine inspiration, like we talked about earlier, following your intuition, that's something that AI will never, I I can't say 50 years from now, but as of now, it can't do that. It cannot touch that level of human or divine, whatever you believe in, inspiration, and it can't have an original thought. And so I think...

the people who are using either exclusively AI or just even copying other people, right, in your content, I think those people are the ones that need to be worried because if you don't have anything original to share, and when I say original, it doesn't need to be like, you know, groundbreaking, no one's ever heard any of this before, but just being real, like I said, sharing real life stories, sharing your opinions, that sort of thing. I think that element of like you and your humanity is missing. There's nothing for people to connect.

RuthAnn Rafiq (37:47.272)

Yeah.

Megan (37:55.02)

with and you'll see the difference that makes in terms of conversions and sales.

RuthAnn Rafiq (38:00.366)

Yes, I think you're 100 % right and I agree with you completely. And with the design piece, I feel like it's nowhere near the level it needs to be. And I think it will get there. I honestly think it will get there with how far it's gone already. Like I think it will probably get there in my lifetime, but I am not worried about it. And I think as long as people are people, you know, we crave people to help us. We don't want just someone giving us an, I mean.

Megan (38:09.258)

No. Yeah.

RuthAnn Rafiq (38:27.516)

I'll speak for myself. I don't want just to like me typing on chat GBT and like, tell me what to do. I would rather talk with it, talk it out with like a coach, like personally speaking or a business bestie or something like that. So I think.

Megan (38:34.338)

Yeah.

Megan (38:38.688)

Yeah, you know, it robs you of ownership in a way and they've started doing studies on this, right? It's like when people use AI to create their content, for example, like it's no longer their content really. And I think regardless of like, you know, what you believe in from like, you know, the energetics and spiritual side of things, like people can feel.

the difference. I don't think that's like a reach or a stretch to say that. Like, no human being is in contact with the people feel the difference. And there's a sense also of like, you know, why would I bother to read something you couldn't be bothered to write, or look at design that no one could be bothered to create, they just pressed a button. I think we're robbing ourselves of the experience of like creation and the hard work of building and creating something from scratch. It's like if AI builds your entire business, is it really your business? And like, do you have something to look at and be proud of?

RuthAnn Rafiq (38:59.24)

Yeah.

Megan (39:27.936)

Like, I don't know. Again, like I don't think it's all good or all bad. I think it's nuanced for sure. But I don't think, you know, to your point, we're anywhere near that total replacement stage.

RuthAnn Rafiq (39:39.42)

Yeah, I think that you definitely have something, you know, there's so many things that we can go into when it comes to this topic. But I think that is very, very true. I mean, you know, you want to be proud of what you've done. don't just like something spit you out like the whole thing. I don't know. Yeah, you. It's a helpful tool. And I think there's there's boundaries that need to be in place.

Megan (39:59.02)

Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah, it's a big topic. know, stay tuned for the episode of Blaze. I can send you the link and we can go deeper on this conversation because I'll talk about specifically what it means from like your perspective, like in terms of selling and marketing as a service provider, right? Like, because it is, I don't think, you know, what I get into in that episode is I don't think any of us are in danger of AI replacing our jobs, but it is impacting how you need to market and sell to your audience. Like that's the real change that we should be quote unquote.

RuthAnn Rafiq (40:05.498)

It is. Yes!

RuthAnn Rafiq (40:26.213)

Yeah.

Megan (40:29.806)

concerned with but like I said, you know, it's always a double-edged sword. Yes, there's you know, it's a quote-unquote threat, but it's also an opportunity in a lot of ways.

RuthAnn Rafiq (40:37.384)

Totally. Well, that I think is a perfect way as we are wrapping up, like everyone needs to go listen to the Blaze podcast. I love your podcast. It's always so good. So I'm glad you're tackling that topic. I think that's such a fascinating thing to talk about and just to hear different perspectives on it is so good. So as we are wrapping up, I have two questions for you these are more on the personal, well, sort of, on the personal side, but what is something exciting?

you in your personal life and you can this could be a win a new routine or something you're looking forward to whatever you'd like to share.

Megan (41:11.118)

you probably already know what I'm to say because we're talking about this earlier, you know that in the next couple weeks or so I'm going to be moving from Canada, that's where I'm from, Ontario, Canada, to Scotland, Edinburgh, Scotland. And it's going be my lifelong dream to live in Scotland. I've done a lot of travelling and it's still just my favourite place. It's so magical to me. It's such a dream that I'm able to do this and I'm so grateful for my business that's made it possible.

RuthAnn Rafiq (41:12.894)

You

It's true.

Megan (41:38.37)

that I can work from anywhere and afford to live in my dream city and all the things. So I'm very excited. There's a lot happening and it's a little overwhelming, but it's mostly exciting.

RuthAnn Rafiq (41:48.409)

Yes, 100%. Well, it's like what we were talking about. Like, you know, a new thing is always there's a little hesitancy even when it's wonderful. Exactly. I am so thrilled for you and just seeing all of your travel photos and I just know you're going to thrive there and I just can't wait to see how you love it, you know, how you love living there for sure. That's so cool.

Megan (41:53.804)

It's always both. Yeah.

Megan (42:08.034)

Thank you.

RuthAnn Rafiq (42:09.022)

And you and I talked about this when we hopped on, but I am also in the process of moving. So you and I are moving around the same time in just a few weeks, which is so crazy.

Megan (42:15.806)

I know, it's so exciting. Our lives have really like synced up on this one. We've reached that level of friendship, yeah.

RuthAnn Rafiq (42:22.27)

They have totally synced up, yes. It's true. And then what is something that is exciting you in your business? Are you launching anything new, bringing on a new team member, anything you would like to share when it comes to your business, what's exciting you?

Megan (42:36.782)

So many things. I mean, the Blaze podcast is coming back in the fall. We were on a break for the summer. So I'm excited about that. Some really fun episodes lined up, as I mentioned. And then I would just say, you know, my group program, sales separation, I'm really excited to be relaunching again this fall. feel like every time we do it, gets, you know, kind of gets better and we go deeper, like with the women inside and seeing the community evolve. And I've also got a new masterclass that's going to be going, you know, leading into that launch time.

really excited for. It's just really, really tactical kind of taking everything we talked about here today and going deeper on. And it's called the feel good sales method. And so it's all about how to find, yeah, the sales strategy that's going to work for you and your audience and generally feel good on both sides. And it will continue to work for you no matter what's going on with AI or the economy and all of these things, but how to build something really long lasting and sustainable. So I am really excited about that.

RuthAnn Rafiq (43:12.313)

nice.

RuthAnn Rafiq (43:30.738)

That sounds awesome. And so for anyone who maybe struggles with sales or maybe you don't struggle, maybe you just want to feel better about it and you just want to feel more confident in what you're selling, you have to be following Meg and going to her masterclass and checking out everything she has. just, I just feel like you're so authentic with who you are and everything you preach you do, like from a sales copy perspective from like in your...

newsletter list, the value you give in your coaching calls. Like you are just authentic and just so real and generous in your, like how you help people. So yeah, everyone needs to check out what you're doing. And thank you so much again for coming on. This was so much fun.

Megan (44:14.018)

Thank you, Ruthanne, I appreciate that so much.