Befriending the Competition: How Finding Your People in Your Industry Changes Everything with Allison Burns
She works with the same types of clients I do, why would I be friends with her? What if their design style influences my own style? What if I feel jealous and competitive? These are the topics fellow brand designer Allison Burns and I get into. While our chat is design-industry specific you can take our conversation and apply it to any industry you might be in. We talk about many obvious and not-so-obvious reasons connections in your industry are so important and why you should make it a priority in your business.
Hello, World!
Before we dive into the episode, have we met?
I’m RuthAnn, the brand + Squarespace website designer behind the women-centered design studio, R Artspace.
Since 2016 I’ve been working with incredible women coaches and service providers with sophisticated branding and website design. I LOVE seeing women step into their next level of business growth with a brand and website that’s set up for their expansion.
On the personal side, I’m a wife, mama to 3 littles and we live in Kansas City, Missouri. So good to meet you!
RuthAnn: Hey friends welcome back to Rebrand with RuthAnn, and Allison, welcome to the show! So I feel like in I haven't really seen a lot of podcast episodes about this topic. So I'm really excited that we're diving into it and it's about befriending the competition. You are I are both brand designers and design in Squarespace. We both serve heart-centered women and business owners so I’m excited to dive into this topic with you, my biz bestie. Share with us a bit of background on your design journey, maybe kind of where you are with motherhood, and then we'll go from there.
Allison: Yeah, and I'll reflect that back to you. am the same. Like ever since we've started really connecting on a very regular basis, I feel there's so much that comes from that and the confidence will get into all that. But thank you for being my business, Bestie. Yeah, so my name is Allison Burns. I am a branding and graphic designer, and I'm based in the Twin Cities area near Minneapolis.
I went to design school, I kind of burnt out in design school, and then I started kind of going down the marketing communications route, had some internal design jobs kind of on that front. I ended up working at a nonprofit and loved it and also kind of burnt out from just the intensity of what can result in working internally as a nonprofit employee. But I had just developed this huge heart for like really guiding kind of the not only design process but like the marketing process and how design fits into marketing and What I ended up happening was I end up taking on these small little freelance projects like mom and pop shop type of projects and it was like small, like back in the day, newspaper ads. I'm not kidding. Like newspaper ads in the local paper.
I was working for a local theater, so we would do ads there and I would help them with a lot of communications and design internally there too. But these freelance projects that I was taking on were really like, I could have like control over my time. I could do what my mom did, who was an entrepreneur and she was able to stay home with us when we were young and work. I mean, it was not easy. It was like working at night and figuring it all out and juggling just like you and I are doing. But I really had that vision for the future, even in my early-ish mid-20s, I really wanted that. So it was kind of like this blend of getting this experience of working independently and guiding clients through this process and working at this theater and getting really hands-on experience.
And my boss was she was really had a great marketing mind and really helped me see how design is placed such a pivotal role in marketing in the grander scheme of things. So yeah, so from there I started my business, know, officially I ended up leaving the theater and I worked for my mom for a couple years in bookkeeping, which is like opposite of what my typical, you know, where my brain is. But it was a really great experience. I was able to build my client base as I went and pretty soon I was full time and I've been in business for 13 years now, which is crazy to say. Yeah, it's been wonderful.
And now I have two kiddos, a six year old and a two and a half little over two and a half year old. And it's like, you think you know how it's all gonna go. I'm not, not that I claim to know exactly how it's gonna go, but you know, it never is exactly how you think it's gonna be. So it's always an adventure. And I'm just so grateful to have had that foresight back then to know that I wanted to go this route or listen to those little God nudges and inklings to say, yeah, this is the road you're meant to go down. And that's how I truly feel.
RuthAnn: Totally, and all of those past experiences you had play a significant role in how you provide service to your clients now, which is so cool. And also, it’s rare to hear people be in business for over 10 years nowadays so it’s nice that we have that longevity in common. We can be honest and share the hard stuff and we get it.
Allison: Yes. Because even if you think you know what you're doing, no one ever really knows what they're doing. Even 10, 13 years in, it's still like you're kind of relearning lessons in a different way, in a different season of life. At least that's how I am. It's like, I've learned this before, but it feels different because I wasn't a mom, or I only had one kid versus two, or for you three.
RuthAnn: In the past, I have like muted other designers or like even unfollowed people, because I just can't, I can't take in all that they're doing, because I love all that they're doing so much. I feel like I've gotten more confident as the years go on in my own style and my own work. so, but I think like you and I, I have followed you on Instagram for a very long time. And I always like resonated with things you were posting, cause you post like heartfelt things. It's not, you do post your work and stuff and you are not on Instagram as much as you, not as much as you used to be, but like you.I'm curious what you think, like when it comes to following other designers work, you know, how does that affect you like it affected me?
Allison: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think, I mean, it's natural to want to stay inspired and want to know what's new, like in the design world, like what people are doing and staying up to date on trends. feel, hate, but I mean, I'm not even, when I design, I'm not designing based on the trend or trends. I'm designing based on my clients' needs and how they want to represent themselves. And I feel like my approach in general, like the way I design is very timeless, like that's always what I'm after is creating something that's timeless and that's not always what's out there.
So I try to bring myself back to that. And yes, I try to avoid, mean, easier said than done 100 % but try to avoid, you know, harping on like other people's work too much. I mean, I'm not going to lie. Sometimes I will look at other people's work for inspiration. Like if I'm like, I'm looking for XYZ and I know that this person probably has like gone with this vibe before. Like if I'm trying to like get my wheels turning, yes, but it's such a fine line. You do not want to, you have to be so, so careful to not end up copying because it could be unintentional. And so you don't want it to unintentionally shape your own ideas.
You want to lead with your own ideas and what you know about the client. So all that to say, it's easy to second guess yourself, but like going with your instincts when you've been doing it long enough, like you have to just trust yourself and trust your own process and trust your clients, you know, and and give them a voice in the process. least that's kind of my approach in general is making sure they have a voice and that I'm keeping that at the forefront while guiding them.
RuthAnn: Totally. It can be hard to follow other designers without it influencing your work. And, like you, I believe in timeless and classic design styles because I think one of the worst things you can do is invest a lot of money and get a trendy brand that’s outdated in like 2 years. So have you built friendships with other designers in the past?
Allison: Yeah, I feel like it not as consistent as we are. Like I haven't, it's not this consistent, like constantly touching base, you know, and, and, it's, yeah, it's so wonderful that it's not just about work, but it's about life. Cause everything is integrated, especially when you have little ones and you're, and you are intentionally integrating it, you know, like it's, it's all one, it's all one thing sometimes. And that's what it feels like at least.
But, I have a couple other people who I like touch base with like on a quarterly basis. have a friend who I've known for a long time who we're starting to do just quarterly zoom calls, just an hour. We have it set aside and we just chat. And again, I mean, regardless of whether it looks like regular Voxer messages or having those things on the calendar, for me, I used to think, especially in this season where I feel like when I do have work time, because I work like 15 to 20 hours a week.
So when I have that work time set aside, I am like, sitting down and getting it done. I feel the pressure, not in a bad way always, but just I have to get stuff done. I have to do the client work or my marketing work or whatever it is. Most of the time it's focused on client work. And so when I'm like, I have to fit in this call with a designer, it feels like, my gosh, do I even have the capacity to fit this in? But what I've learned is it is equally as important as everything else I have to do because the connection, like just being able to, whether it's venting about something that's happening or just needing feedback on something or like going through this tricky client situation that I'm just really stuck on and I'm feeling very like I'm overly emotional about it or I'm having a hard time getting past it. It's like just having someone to talk to, that is so important.
“And my husband is wonderful. God bless him. Like I love him. He's so great about just like thinking about things logically. But sometimes there's nothing that replaces having someone that's in your industry. No one understands the ups and downs of your field and the intricacies of your field, like someone who's actually in it too.”
So what I found, that's a long way of saying, I have some people as you know, in addition to that I reach out to, but. Ultimately, having those people that like your values align and this other friend of mine definitely has that, you know, we have that in common.
And so just having those people who get you and who have similar values and are living out their values in a similar way. Not that there can't be differences, but just having those people that you trust and having that on the calendar regularly or like what we do, we just kind of get back to each other once a week or however much we're able to. Like that is just, it's so important for my.
Ultimately, like my mental health, honestly. Like it's a healthy thing for me to connect with other people and work that in. It's just as important as a lot of everything else I'm doing.
RuthAnn: I cannot agree with that more. It's so important to connect with someone who gets it, who, like you said, is in values alignment and talking about those frustrations, the hard clients, asking for guidance it’s so beneficial.
We are verbal processors. There’s a saying that says, women use so many thousands of words a day and men use a few hundred. And it’s funny but it’s true.
And I think it's just nice for, know, woman to woman, like we just have so many things, especially being a mother of little ones in our season specifically. But even if you don't have kids, I think it is so valuable to have those friendships and to have. someone you can really get it with, like you said, in your industry, it's just incredible. It touches a lot of things. So I think it's really been helpful to me for sure.
Allison: Yeah, for sure. the other thing I'll say is I feel like maybe this is very design industry specific, but there's so many things out there about how to do things. And this is the best way to make the most money quickest or whatever. Everyone has their method that works for them in their studio and their business. And that applies probably across the board to any industry. But I feel like that with you and I, it has been so helpful to be like, yes, there's differences in how we run our businesses.
But it's helpful to like, no, you know what? You could cut down on revisions by doing X, Y, Z. And that's great. But ultimately, the tough clients, the projects that don't go smoothly, that's normal part of business. Sometimes you just have those. just having someone, you just feel less alone in those intricacies when the world of social media and what you're seeing out there is like, I don't have any revisions on this. I never have anything.
that goes wrong. It's like, that's not true. Like it's just not reality. And so talking, just being real with somebody, it makes me feel that's been a really big thing for me. Like, okay, this is normal. It's uncomfortable and I don't like it. And I'm not saying I don't want to strategize on how to make this go smoother next time, whatever, you know, situation is, but it also is like, no, sometimes it's just, you're not doing anything wrong. It's just that you're, it's normal to have these kinds of ups and downs. Do you know what I mean?
RuthAnn: That is so true, especially on social media. People aren't talking about the difficult clients, like the emails, trying to get something right and it's not working. No one talks about that, of course. They're showing the final product.
There's a lot that goes behind the scenes that we don't talk about. so it is so nice to bring up those situations and scenarios. And, I just want to say we don't name names. Like we protect our clients’ privacy. Like we're not bringing up specific things, anything like that. But it's nice to kind of talk about like, this is the situation.
This is the situation, I don't really know how to respond.
You know, this client maybe is late on a payment, how do you handle that?
We're just talking through real real things and it's nice to have that with someone and just know that we are all going through this even if we don't think that we are like, this person looks like they really have it under, like everything is like perfect for them. It's like, well, not really.
Allison: Yeah. Yep. Yep. And I always say working on creative projects with other people is hard, especially branding, it's so personal. And it's just so personal to your clients. And so it's like, it's always it's going to be hard sometimes. Like there's just those situations that are hard. So yeah, I value your input and so much and I just, I can't recommend like finding that person, you know, more who's in your industry, which again, feels counterintuitive sometimes.
RuthAnn: And about that, so when we are talking about in our industry, I think one of the first things people might think is like, they might “take my clients from me.” Like if we both are needing these types of clients and we both have very similar types of clients, would that happen? As you and I have very similar clients, it’s not the same but there’s crossover. What would you say to that if someone's feeling a little scarcity around lack of clients?
Allison: Yeah, mean, kind of, well, first of all, kind of what we were just saying, like the emotional support, just having a sounding board, people understanding, you know, what you're going through. Obviously, that's a huge plus. But I will say kind of speaking to what you were saying, every clients are going to resonate with different styles, different personalities. There's more than enough work to go around. And yes, like the economy and all these external factors can impact the industry as a whole sometimes but it doesn't, you know, and how much people are booking and so forth. But ultimately, it’s community over competition, the scarcity over abundance, like you can choose to feel like, there's not enough work, but also you could choose to say, if you think about, especially in our industry, like everyone, not everyone, most businesses will need a designer of some sort at some point in their business. So it's about us figuring out ways to go out there and get those clients and find the right fit. mean, not every client's gonna be the right fit for you. So you have to, I think that's more of like an internal thing also to say, I have the confidence, you have to build up that confidence to know that your work is good and your work is valuable. And it's more about that. I think that for me, that's what I'm focusing on. And when I'm connecting with you and other designers. I mean, you're going to end up learning and growing so much faster when you connect with other people. That sharing of resources, the lessons learned, the tips and like, you know, all these things like we were just talking about, like bookkeeping, you know, things like that, that like doesn't even directly relate to getting clients. Like there's so much more to it than just the client side. So that's that's kind of a jumbled like thoughts. But I feel like there's just so much more to it than just the client stuff.
“When it comes to getting clients, I just feel like stay in your lane and remember that not every client is right for you anyway. I know that you've referred people to me and at one point you were a Squarespace website referral partner to me when I wasn't really doing many websites… Like there's so much more collaboration that can actually happen than you think. Just lead from a genuine place.”
RuthAnn: Totally. And I think of that affirmation: the right client is gonna wanna work with me. They are going to feel like you are the right fit. It’s not about convincing people. It’s not about saying I’m better than that designer, it’s nothing like that. You’re putting off a lot without even saying anything from your confidence to your presence to your vibe. The right fit client will feel it and want to work with you.Allison Burns (23:10.636)
Allison: Yep. Yeah. I've had, recently I've had a project where the vibe they were going for was a lot like this other designer’s style. And I had some imposter syndrome, right? I still struggle with it a little bit and we’re all working on it. But this style was pushing me out of my comfort zone, which is a good thing. And I was like, and I told my husband that he was like, “they hired you though, like they chose you they could have gone out and find someone else but they hired you for this reason like they are trusting you it's okay” like you're gonna you know, and I wasn't like doubting my skills it was more like maybe this person would have done a better job or whatever. I was just getting in my head about it.
Ultimately, they could have done all this research, but they chose me. And I have to, you have to trust that, you know, clients are choosing you. And even if you don't have any clients right now, or you're kind of, it's kind of feeling a little sparse, like they will choose you. You have to get in front of them. And it's an internal, internal thing as well, like you said.
RuthAnn: Exactly. So another thing people might think is, if I have a friend in my industry what if they “steal” my special sauce? Some of these things I’m bringing up are mindset thoughts, scarcity thoughts, and I think so much of business is mindset anyway, what what would you say to sharing your “secrets” with a competitor? I’m curious your thoughts.
Allison: Mm-hmm. That's a really good question. I feel like I don't think it's bad to have boundaries. If there are certain things that make you feel uncomfortable sharing I don't think you need to share it. I guess that's how I feel. However, I feel like There's so many different ways we could talk about this, but I think that as an industry actually share sharing is caring haha. No, but seriously, it’s elevating the industry as a whole.
When you're sharing, I mean, it should come from a good place. And if you're not comfortable, don't do it. But I don't know. I just feel like I'm just such an open book. I want people to succeed. I want to share. If someone comes to me, I'm not putting out my systems and processes in public.
“Although, I share those with my design mentorship group that I host for designers. I give them everything. That's a place where I really want to like share everything, right? We have this intimate group and we're able to talk about the nuances and everything. But ultimately, like even when you do share that the goal is to make it your own. Like what's going to work for you, may not work for them and their clients and their business. So like for me, it doesn't feel uncomfortable really because the secret sauce is you.”
RuthAnn: Totally. I agree with that and I like that you said that you said there are those boundaries. Like you don't have to feel like you have to share every single thing. There are boundaries that you can and whatever you feel comfortable sharing, like that's what you should share and you know, trusting your gut in these situations. But I believe also that all of the information we ever need is out there for anyone's taking. So I feel like it's all there and we can take which parts we want, take which parts we don't want, but whatever is really aligned for you, I think that's what's really going to work for you.
Because I know in the beginning of my business, I was using a lot of different strategies from a lot of different mentors and coaches and stuff, and just the things that were not fitting me, they just didn't work, and they just kind of fell away. And the things that did work for me, I've just adopted it, whether it be a tool or a system or something where I was asking for advice. And so I think it's important to kind of check in with yourself. Does this feel aligned to me? Is this a strategy that's sustainable for me? And kind of coming back to what do you feel like will work for you and what resonates the most. So I think that's great, yeah, good.
Allison: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like also like there's, you know, when you're really helping people, you're giving them most of the time because so much is out there. Like every, you know, a lot of these things that we're doing is out there somewhere. So what we're doing is helping give people kind of a shortcut, you know, to like, Hey, this is what worked for me. And it's not necessarily going to work exactly that same way for you, but this helps you expedite this process or this kind of break through the roadblock that you're experiencing.
Like, why wouldn't you? I mean, for me, like, I want to help people, like not have to like I just like was spinning my wheels for years and years and years when I was when I was first starting. I had no idea what I was doing. It was 2012. Like the, you know, Instagram had barely been around. Well, I don't even know. Don't quote me on that. But you know what I mean? Like it's been it's so change. Everything has changed. And so it's and and evolve more.
So I wish I didn't have to my wheels for so many years and just having a sounding board and having people help and give little insights like that can just make such a big difference and I if I can do that for people for me for you for anybody like I want to be able to do that like not that I have all the answers but if this little thing helps in a big way you just never know you know.
RuthAnn: Yes, and I'm so glad you brought that up. And so I do wanna end our time with you sharing about the design mentorship that you have for people. But before we do that, So do you have any really quick tips for people who are wanting to make a friend in their industry?
Allison: Yeah, I mean, think not being afraid to start the conversation and keep in touch. even like, mean, our relationship, our friendship started on Instagram, I believe, right? I mean, initially, that was a long time ago when we initially connected. But not being afraid to kind of start, I that feels like a little weird thinking about, I'm just going to start commenting on their stuff. That feels a little creepy and weird. But like, if you come at it from a genuine place, you never know what can come of it.
It's kind of the same like not rules, but it's kind of how I approach even networking. Like when I'm looking for clients, I go to once in a while, go to some networking events. It's like just approaching things in a really real way and being generous and authentic and just like being real. mean, not they have to show it again. You don't have to share everything. I wouldn't share the same things I share with you in a networking sense. But like when you approach business from a heart-centered just real place, it's amazing what will happen, you know, because people connect to something real, you know, they want real, they don't want somebody who's super polished all the time, you know, because that's not real. I mean, in my experience, you know.
RuthAnn: Exactly, 100%. So when people are looking to make friends in their industry, it just starts with a connection. It can be hard sometimes, because you're putting yourself out there and you're hoping it gets reciprocated. But if it doesn't, there's more people out there who would totally be a really good fit to be a friend for the long run. So I would just keep looking till you find that person. And it's so nice to have, like we were talking about this whole episode, it just helps in so many different ways. And so even if you've gone through it before with someone and it didn't work out or something, keep at it. And just I think that value alignment is really important that we mentioned. When you find someone you really align with on values, I think it's a great starting point because you already connect on the deeper issues.
Allison: Just again, like when you're in this like online space that's so over saturated with in all the ways, like in every way, even just like if you admire somebody reaching out and like, this is beautiful or I really love this or responding to a story. This is again, specific to social or to Instagram. But just like reaching out and just like connecting in that way. And it's amazing what little conversations can start from just like one little compliment or just reach out.
I know another designer was looking for advice from other designers. She's a pretty big designer in the industry that a lot of people are familiar with. And she was asking about kind of project cadence, because she was feeling really overwhelmed. She's super talented, has a lot on her plate. And she was asking, hey, designers, do you have, I would love any advice. I'm trying to revamp how I'm structuring my project cadence. And I just responded, and I sent her a voice note. And I just said, hey, I know that I do business a little different than you, but this is what has worked for me and I just wanted to share it. And she responded and was like, thank you so much. And this is where I'm at. And we went back and forth a little bit. It doesn't have to be a super long exchange, but just like that. And then she has sent people my way, like referrals my way when it doesn't fit with her schedule, when a project doesn't fit or whatever. And so for that, I mean, again, I wasn't asking for that. I was just saying.
Hey, like I have something to share. want to, and I'm always trying to come from that place. Like it just, there's something in me that wants to share that with her because I want her to succeed, you know? So just like those little conversations, that's a social media specific, but I mean, that's a really great way to connect with people and just start little conversations and you never know where it might lead, you know?
RuthAnn: Well, you're so right about that. Like it might lead to a friendship or, you know, getting referrals sent your way. Yeah, you never know. And that's something my business coach always told me. She's like every single connection is important and you never know like where like what can come of it. And so, you know, give it your all, like be present, be there with them and make that connection because it's, you know, every single person is important. it's good. Exactly.
Allison: And even if it's adjacent industries, if it's someone who's like, you know, doesn't have to be right in your industry. I know I connected with somebody who worked at my bar studio that I used to go to before kids. And she was in the marketing kind of realm for them. And her and I just totally connected. It was total like friendship. Just we liked each other a lot. And all these years later, that was like seven years ago, eight years ago, probably now.
She's now the marketing director at a nonprofit locally and I'm working with them this fall and it's a big like nonprofit and she's the one that's like the marketing director who's been following me since we became friends and now I get to do this big project. Okay, seven years in the making, right? But it wasn't like me going into that saying I'm gonna get a project out of this. It was literally like a friendship. You just never know who you meet and who you connect with and that wasn't the goal to get a project but it was still like you just, it just goes to show you never know what connections will lead to something more, whether it's a genuine friendship like ours and this like supportive relationship or it's a project or it's referrals or it's whatever, know, collaborations.
RuthAnn: Yes, that's so good. So as we wrap up I would love for you to share about your design mentorship because I feel like this would have been amazing if something like this was around when I was getting started. I did join a course, but this is more relaxed and tailored to individuals, like coaching.
Allison: Yeah, thank you for giving me the chance to chat about it because it's one of my favorite things I do. It's my, the group is called Anchor and Grow and it was born from kind of exactly what we're talking about from this like really like kind of like a mission driven type of place where I just really wanted to give back and exactly what you said like I wish that I had something like this when I was when I was first starting.
So I really, what I was really hoping is to just, and what manifested was bringing designers together in their first like two to three years of business, maybe and more. mean, there's people in there that have been in business for a long time too, and just love the mentorship so they stay. But I wanted to bring people together who are looking for just like that, not just a course. This is how you do it. Follow these steps. There is a time and place for that 100%. So I'm not knocking that at all, but there is a separate kind of place for mentorship. And I think
Having building that relationship with somebody that that like gets to under really understand, like get to know you and understand you and your business and what your unique goals are is so helpful. And someone who's been in the industry for long enough. And again, I don't have all the answers, but I do have been through a lot of like weird client situations and a lot of ups and downs and seasons changing in my business and life. And I've learned and all the nuts and bolts of processes and all that I've tried so many different ways of, you know, offering my services, like just having somebody in your industry who's been there, who gets it and like wants to give you that dedicated time to like sit down two times a month is when we meet and we just have like kind of open office hours where anyone can bring any question, whether it's a roadblock, whether it's just a topic.
For instance, bookkeeping, we can go back to that one. Like, hey, how does everyone do bookkeeping? How do you do bookkeeping? What have you seen to be most effective? And we just have the conversation. I give my expertise and what I know about it what's worked for me. And then we talk about how we could potentially adapt that for their business. And everyone gets to weigh in.
“So it's almost like a mentorship mastermind blend. And the point behind Anchor and Grow and kind of the story behind that is wanting to really help them create a very sustainable business that is like anchored in their like true vision for what they want their life to look like.”
I'm all about life first business. And so how can we anchor their business to like the solid, build a solid foundation so they feel anchored and not like all over the place, which everyone feels like that when they're first starting a business, they're kind of throwing spaghetti at the wall. It's kind of helping them get their systems, get their processes, get like, what are they doing? You know, trying to put some structure in place and build a great foundation so that they can grow and evolve and continue to kind of, yeah, grow their studio in the way they want to while running a sustainable business.
So it's just, one of my favorite things I do. It's such a great group of people. It attracts people who, aren't just wanting the answers. Like, this is a black and white answer, because that's just not even the case. But they just want that dedicated time to focus on their business, talk to other designers like we were just talking about you know, having the dedicated time and support is just so invaluable and that community is so invaluable.
RuthAnn: It is such a needed thing in today's day and age when everything is so fast paced. And like you said, there's courses, there's so many self paced things out there. And I think what people really, well, let me just speak for myself. What I would have really loved is just that Q and A format of like, okay, can I come to this call with other people who are getting it, like a group coaching call and you can just do office hours. And I just think it's amazing and it's incredibly affordable. So if you are a newer designer and you are looking for that type of community that we've been talking about that is so important as you grow your business. I encourage you to check out what Allison is doing. So if you just want to share where people can find you, that would be great.
Allison: Yeah. So if you go to my website, you will be able to get all the information about the Anchor and Grow, the mentorship community and group. You can also find me on Instagram once in a while, as RuthAnn mentioned. try, man, I try. But I do love connecting with people in the DMs there. So if you send me a DM, I will be like back to you very soon.
RuthAnn: Yes, and we will link everything in the show notes, of course, but thank you so much for this conversation, and it's just so necessary in this day and age and always to have people by your side who get it. So thank you so much for coming on the show.
Allison: Yeah, thank you for inviting me. was a great conversation.
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